I agree, but is it important for the "religion" to be effectively neutered.

>If you really believed in God and Heaven you'd become a monk or nun, logically you'd spend your finite life maximising your chance of infinite reward

I think the story is not as simple as that. The problem is that people actually _do_ believe in Heaven/Hell and they _wish_ that they have the devotion to match their faith. That is to say that people wish they can become a nun or a monk. Which is why when people do become nun/monk/suicide bombers, they don't condemn them but wish they are brave enough to do it themselves (why not every religious person is suicidal) or even admit to wanting to do it (why it doesn't show up as much in polls).

You had to patch the religion to avoid the suicide bug, telling people that it was bad.

You only want really old religions that have been around long enough they're not doing anything mad, but most people aren't going around doing mad things if they have a comfortable life, they just need someone to tell them they're on the right path, people crave leaders

I’m far from being antivax but if you look at the thousands / millions of deaths caused by religious wars and / or strict societal control in history and up to today I’m not sure I agree with your statement that antivax people are way more dangerous than organized religion.

Religious wars are rarely about religion. And hopefully mostly in the past.

Usually about colonisation, control, who has political power, who's getting the best land.

You can trick the true believers into fighting for you of course, but what's the difference between Nazis and Christians invading the Middle East?

the social part - as I get older I realize why people go to church even if they're astrophyscists

and with organised religion you get the crusades and the inquisition.

Current day catholicism is pretty nice, because we've had a good 300+ years of post-englightenment/rationalism in society to balance out the violent intolerance religion zealots can dish out.

agree that religious/spiritual groups can be good for social ties.

To be fair, playing badmington every tuesday night is also good for social ties, and less likely to make you feel justified in violently disembowelling someone for heresy. Or flying planes into tall building in the name of God.

You know, given the choice between ISIS and antivaxxers, I think I'll take the anitvaxxers.

> You know, given the choice between ISIS and antivaxxers, I think I'll take the anitvaxxers.

Say Christian nationalism rose to it's post-reconstruction prominence. Where would you put it?

> agree that religious/spiritual groups can be good for social ties.

Further: Religious humanitarian projects aren't insignificant and it's not like they're competing with non-religious aid. If aiding religions disappeared, nothing would fill the vacuum - because the vacuum is far from filled now.

> Say Christian nationalism rose to it's post-reconstruction prominence. Where would you put it?

I had to look up what this meant, so if I'm mis-interpreting it, please correct me.

But from what I understand it's just ISIS but swap the Quran for the Bible? Not a huge fan of that idea. Really any fundamentalist religion ramming it's morality down my throat grinds my gears. Still prefer the anti-vaxxers. At least they're not going to tell me how to live my life. They're more like drunk drivers - I have to deal with their stupidity endangering my life, but with religious freaks I have to deal with their stupidity endangering my life (because the Pope declared that vaccines weren't kosher, or that the new cancer treatment is heresy, or stem cell research displeases the Prophet, and you can't argue with that because it's religion, it is by definition arbitrary, disagree and the Pope sends you off to get burned at the stake for heresy), and them controlling every minute detail of my life (prayer mandated, dress code mandated, etc).

> If aiding religions disappeared, nothing would fill the vacuum - because the vacuum is far from filled now.

that's a strong claim and and I don't think your reasoning adequately supports it.

Still, I suppose it's possible that if all religious groups disappeared tomorrow secular sources of aid would not move to compensate. shrug

Nevethless, I don't think "there isn't enough aid now, ergo if religions disappear there will be even less" is a logically sound argument, perhaps there are some intermediate steps to your reasoning that I'm missing, if so please explain them :)

>> If aiding religions disappeared, nothing would fill the vacuum - because the vacuum is far from filled now.

>that's a strong claim and and I don't think your reasoning adequately supports it.

This puzzles me. My claim is self-evident. The vacuum of human need exists; only a tiny portion is filled.

Anyone who wants to supplant a religious outreach effort can form up now and achieve the good they seek. In other words, if you want to compete and put religions out of the service game, please do.

> But from what I understand it's just ISIS but swap the Quran for the Bible? Not a huge fan of that idea.

Christian nationalism grew and pervaded America in the decades during and after reconstruction. The Klan was probably the most visible facet of that and but it was everywhere, organized and not.

I do a fair amount of genealogy and in my perception, there are many parallels between now and the early 20th century.

Religious groups have been disappearing, and in their place is a rise in new age woo that's worse than the previous solution.

The problem with Anti Vax is it's fine until a threshold is reached and then everyone gets diseases

> Without Organised Religion you get antivax people

Antivax people have been around since 1798 when the first vaccine was invented (arguably even _before_ that; some of the same arguments were made about variolation).

A lot of anti vaxxers seem to advertise themselves as Christian. I think the actual problem (when it comes to anti vaxx, incels, and similar cults) is the internet unfortunately.

I wish religion would dissuade antivaxism. I'm active in a faith and every antivaxer I know is some stripe of Christian. They're a small minority, thank Glob.